I don't support transgenderism. Convince me otherwise.

Man, I wish one person would make an actual intelligent point on this thread... I seriously wanna debate this.

Read my thread dude, I explain it. Also, read the post on the first page telling why I believe this is a pressing issue.

 

WHAT IS THERE TO DEBATE!?
Like I don't support wearing socks with sandals what is there to debate about? Its just the way someone lives there own life.

 

Dude, I just told you to read my post. I spent a while on that. I'm giving you a lot of patience here, I don't think it's that far-fetched for me to ask you to read my post. But, I'll highlight why.

1. Start of a post truth society: Ignoring facts and logic and only seeing things form the subjective emotional standpoint may be the start of a society where facts are shunned upon. I know that seems absurd, but it's already started. Calling a male a male, even with irrefutable evidence, is now considered bigotry.

2. Saving lives. Transgenders pre surgery and post surgery have the same suicide rates, at 40%. This was a study done by UCLA. This proves that supporting transgender getting surgery doesn't help at all. Seeking professional help instead of supporting delusion might be able to save some lives.


I support transgender people seeking treatment in any way they see fit, including surgery if they want, I just don't support transgenderism and will never call a boy a girl.

 

Transgenderism is basically just plastic surgery and fashion decisions though, so as long as people treat it like that, a personal preference, theres no issue. I 100% agree with you that the ideologies surrounding transgenders are bad, you are 100% right that lots of people do deny objective fact when it comes to these issues, but the problems don't lie with transgenders.

 

Because you're trying to get an answer to a topic that is fairly groundbreaking from a scientific perspective from a bunch of little kids on a minecraft forum. Did it never occur to you that you should ask this question somewhere where there are people qualified to answer? You know, people who have graduated middle school?

No offence 7ace, but you're a smart guy and I know that you know just as well as I do that the calibre of responses you're gonna get is pretty low.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 7, 2017 ---

Case in point. Another person saying "I don't care if someone wants to be transgender", as if that's what the topic is.

 

I think transgender people are great, but a lot of people do it as a trend. "Transtrenders" are the most annoying people ever. I think its just making gender dysphoria seem like a cool thing to have. just my opinion dont murder me

 

You are biologically male or female. This is called sex. You can define how you think of yourself and your role in society. This is called gender. You cannot fully change your sex. You can take hormones to suppress the characteristics of your sex and have a sex change operation, but are still biologically male or female. Gender is fluid. You can reassign it along a spectrum due to its fluidity. So a frog is biologically a frog and we can prove it with DNA tests just as we can prove you are biologically male or female. However, just like being gay, you cannot scientifically prove someone is transgender because the act of reassigning gender is a choice by the individual. And before you say scientists have located a gene that may be responsible for being gay, that hypothesis is no where near being tested enough to be considered hard evidence.So your standard of testing is simply not suitable because you are testing for the wrong thing.

Also, so you believe gays can't exist?

 

Finally, a decent point! Thanks so much, I was starting to lose hope here.

Your argument rests on a really shaky word, the word "gender". Gender's definition was probably changed three or four times over the course of this decade. There's a huge debate right now on the true meaning of it, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

The word "gender" being used to describe roles in society doesn't make much sense to me. If transgenders truly believed in this definition, it wouldn't make sense for them to go through a "sex change operation" to change their gender. It's called sex change for a reason, it's an attempt in changing their biological sex, not gender roles.

So, in short, I don't agree with this definition of gender. I believe a sex change operation, the end goal of most transgender people, does nothing to change your role in society, and therefore this word "gender" is merely an excuse to address the factual argument against transgenderism. You also say that gender is based on how you view yourself. If you need to mutilate your body to feel good about yourself, I believe you are a danger to yourself and absolutely delusional. I believe it's no different than wanting to cut off your finger or nose obsessively.

I never talked about the status of being gay. I think it's acceptable to be attracted to different things because attraction is subjective in nature, not factual.

 

The word has been updated to reflect the current times as many words have. The meaning is the meaning. It refers to the role. Sex refers to birth status. Theres no real argument. The word gender is not shaky grounds to put an argument on. That is literally what transgenderism is, a change of gender. All choices after that come from their change of gender.

The name of the operation has nothing to do with the reason behind someone getting it. Its impossible to change your sex (unless by doctors in a fetus with a rare condition i won't get into), so calling it a sex change operation is in of itself, illogical. Its a name. It doesn't mean anything. Ever heard of a misnomer? Chinese checkers was invented in Germany and is unrelated to checkers. AMERICAN FOOTBALL RARELY USES THE FOOT 7ACE COME ON.
That's an incredibly shallow way to look at a sex change operation. They get it to bring their sex to closer reflect their gender. Their actions change their role in society. The surgery is for themselves to prevent continuously clashing mental state and physical traits.

your view on a sex change operation is inaccurate and just plain ridiculous. All invasive operations are mutilations. Just like any other operation, its to serve a purpose. Is Botox mutilation? Is a facelift mutilation? What about liposuction? You couldn't argue that liposuction for cosmetic purposes isn't mutilation with the sole purpose of making one feel better about themselves while condemning a sex change operation. Its opening a human up and forcibly suctioning fat cells into a bag. Laser hair removal? Forcibly burning the pores of the human skin shut.

While your opinions aren't bigoted as you feared they would be called in your opening post, they come from shallow arguments and unwillingness to look deeper.

 

Dude, can you redefine the word gender? It still makes no sense to me, then I'll respond. Also, how does changing your ***** into a ****** change your gender? Seems to me like its an attempt to change your sex, because you're changing your definining sexual trait into the opposite genders sexual trait.

 

holy god dude IT DOESNT CHANGE YOUR GENDER. ITS TO BRING YOUR SEX CLOSER TO YOUR GENDER. YOU CHOOSE THE GENDER. Getting rid of the sexual organ you got at birth is an attempt to bring the sex and the gender closer in alignment. If a biological man decides they are transgender and take the role of a female, then having a sex change operation is an attempt to come closer to the characteristics of a biological female which is closer to the female gender. The moment they decide they are a female gender they are already a female gender.

What do you not get about how I explained gender ? What exactly is unclear from the post. so that I can explain it.

 

As I said, this seems more like an excuse than an actual reason. They aren't seeking to change their genders, they're seeking to be another sex. You acknowledged that sexual transition surgery is a sex based thing, not gender, and referred to it as an operation to make people more comfortable with your gender. This is wrong, though. Sex changes are not considered therapy because the suicide rates of transsexuals before and after surgery is the exact same thing. This was a study done by UCLA I believe, I watched a video on it, if you want the exact article I can provide. Therefore, it isn't successful as a treatment to feel more comfortable with your gender, and shouldn't be associated with that. It doesn't fix anything at all.

I'm also irked by your point saying that "if they decide they're female they're already a female gender". Whats stopping me from deciding to be a frog gender? Or a Apache helicopter gender? Am I allowed to call those who have the audacity to call this absurd bigots? Its the exact same thing with changing your gender.

 

There are two genders, but there is a distinction between the terms "sex" and "gender". Sex is one's biological state, of being male, female, or intersex, whereas gender refers to anyone's self-representation as male or female. This, however, opens a whole new can of worms, seeing as this can be heavily impacted by the traits society views as either male or female.

Overall, the point I am making is that you cannot claim your gender to be a helicopter because that is not a valid gender. There are only two genders, and that differs from sex because you can freely switch gender.

 

I seriously don't know how many times I can say this. THEY. ALREADY. CHANGED. THEIR. GENDER. you do not get a sex change operation to change genders. You get it to obtain SEX characteristics that more closely relate to your GENDER.

It is not therapy. It is, very, very simply. to have SEX CHARACTERISTICS that are CLOSER to your GENDER. I'm highlighting the keywords. I cannot be any more clear. It does not explicitly treat anything. It is for the own person's sake if they think they will make them feel better And I already know of the study in question. While the study's findings are accurate, the transgender community already has the highest suicide rate. This very slightly supports the mental illness theory, but

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 8, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 8, 2017 ---

Cuz a frog is not a gender. You are making up radical arguments by assigning things that aren't remotely related to gender. You age is not fluid. Your age is the number of years that have passed since your birth. Age is unrelated to gender. A god damn apache helicopter is not gender. No where on the spectrum is that a thing. You can't just throw things on the spectrum that don't exist there with 0 reason.

Every single one of your arguments is based either on the fact that you can't/won't understand what gender means or refuse to look at anything past the surface.

 

I have no clue why people think the "You don't share my idea of things/you don't understand what you're talking about because you're not one of them, so you're a bigot" argument style works, I know I'm not one. If you want to change your gender, sure, I honestly dont care and I can acknowledge its possible to do, I just don't believe in the merit or validity of changing your sex at all. I think the words "sex" and "gender" need to be separated entirely into two different, uniform things with uniform meaning. when I started this thread, I thought transexualism and transgenderism were the same thing, and apparently, I'm not alone, A quick look at google's recommended searches shows how many people google what the difference between gender and sex is. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm okay with things based on emotion because its subjective rather than factual based.

Things I still don't get. I don't get why minors in certain states, at the age of 15, can undergo a sex change operation without parental consent, despite 80% regretting it along the lines. I also don't get why someone couldn't be a frog gender. Whose to say what I believe I am isn't valid? If I believe I'm a frog just like a transgender believes hes his chosen gender, whats the difference?. I love this point because you can't counter it without directly violating the definition of gender itself. It doesn't win debates, it just makes your opponent lose.

 

HOLY JESUS THEY ARE. THEY ARE SEPARATE. THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING ACE THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING IN EVERY POST COME ON YOUR A SMART PERSON. YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO COME IN THE ARGUMENT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE BUT YOU'RE IGNORING IT EVERY TIME I MAKE THE DISTINCTION.

Political question. Entirely different conversation. Relates to nothing in this entire thread. Short answer is states rights and they can do whatever they want in terms of mental health.

Because you don't know what gender means and you're constructing an argument around an entire concept you don't understand at even a basic level. The fact that you are saying the term frog gender exemplifies the fact that you don't know the words you are using.

Of course you love made up arguments. Theres a lot of fun in making things up. Lets get to the root here ace because this discussion is growing incredibly tiresome. What do you think gender is?

 

I had a working knowledge on the topic at hand. My initial argument was that you cannot change your sex. Even though I said transgender, it was obvious I meant transsexual, because I was talking about changing your body physically.

You seriously can't blame anyone in this society for mixing up gender and sex. They're two words that change in definition practically once a day. When I tried making the distinction between gender and sexuality, you literally called a sex change operation a "misnomer", proving there are obvious exceptions to the "gender vs sex" argument, because apparently, for this phrase, sex actually meant gender.

7ACE GENDER MEANS THIS BUT SEX MEANS THIS BUT NOT IN SELECT SITUATIONS WHY DONT YOU GET IT!!!!! (caps for emphasis xddddd!!!!!)

I'm asking for uniform usage of both words. When two confusing words are interfering into each others boundaries through misnomers, its confusing. DON'T YOU KNOW ABOUT FOOTBALL!?!?!?!

I'm still waiting for a solid piece of proof or reasoning that says I cant be frog gender. Sure, its absurd, but let me prove it using the official

---7ACE DEDUCTIVE REASONING FLOWCHART--

• Sex change operations are to change your sex to better represent your gender, said by you
• There are two sexes, suggesting there must be two genders
• However, things such as Trigenders exist, and are accepted by the LGBT community as a whole. In addition to this, Bisexuals and Pansexuals are two seperate groups.
• Therefore, there more than two genders
• Now theres three or more genders and two sexes, proving that gender must be more than sex, since theres a third gender. This third gender must be something you feel, because it CAN'T be based on sex.
• I can now officially call myself a frog gender because gender is no exclusively longer based off sex.

 

Its a spectrum, not two binary things.

The deductive reasoning of a toaster. Again, the entire logic string is based off your inability to grasp the idea of gender. Somehow, you went from there are more than two genders to a frog must be a gender. Literally how. You still don't understand gender. When you understand what gender actually means you'd realize your argument is idiotic.

If you're going to go that route, where you make a conjunction between a and b, then you need to prove the two separate statements true. That is improper mathematical logic form. a v b where you only proved a and not be, so you can't put the two into a conjunction.

 

What? I said "there were two genders" because its what you implied when you were talking about gender roles. I literally went against that two lines later. I find this genuinely hilarious, really.Its almost like a scenario where a doctor writes "Many people think that diabetes is caused by sugar, but its caused by genetics" and using the quote "diabetes is caused by sugar" in your research paper. DO YOU KNOW WHAT FOOTBALL IS??????

I think you know you already lost to the frog parable. You've been stating for the past three replies that my thinking makes no sense because I dont understand what gender means, and not attacking the point directly. I'll even use your definition of gender.

Nothing about this even brushes on the idea of sex. Therefore, I'm allowed to identify as frog gender, its how I view my role in society. Who are you to say it can't?

Let me review my reasoning and make it a bit easier to understand, read this and make sure you understand it, its sorta a mouthful. I want you to directly mention this when you reply to my response. The only way for you to say that I can't be a frog is by saying that gender is an expression not of idea, but as of sex. When gender is an expression of idea, I am allowed to associate my gender with anything I so choose (plant, dragon). The only way to counter this point is to say that I can't become anything I choose because gender is a spectrum between male and female, not concerning other species at all. The issue of this is by saying that, you go against LGBT groups everywhere who think that gender is a different definition, proven by the existence of trigenders and pangenders who believe that gender can have a third quality. If you admit there's two separate definitions, you prove my point that gender is an extremely complicated word that needs to be distinct from sex.