Best Posts in Thread: An Open Letter to All Young Christians - Please Convince Me.

Created an account just for you guys! On the basis that, a sizable chunk of the "big" debates that happen here? Usually involve a Biblical worldview Vs a non-religious one. Abortion, Gay-rights, Evolution, Atheism. Threads being littered with people stating their view, with very little to back it up. On both sides. Not to mention the amount of misinformation that goes back and forth.

I want to tackle the reasons, the justification for your beliefs (and mine!). WHY you believe what you do. To engage with those that want to share ideas, and have my opinions open to scrutiny, ridicule, you name it! If you can show me flaws in my logic, expose bad arguments on my side, I'd love that. If you get to change my mind for the better, for free? Who's truly the winner there? I'd be stoked!

So, let's get to it! I'd love to know...

1) Why do you cite the Bible as justification for what you believe, if you disagree with parts of it?
If parts of the Bible are immoral or unworthy of following in your eyes, then you don't get your morals from God, do you? Otherwise you'd follow every word. To shun some parts of the Bible, means that you already have a moral system in place. An extra-Biblical source for your values.

2) If Science says X, and the Bible says Y, do you believe the Biblical account over Science? Take 'Evolution' for example. If we have centuries of documented evidence for Evolution? The genetic code and our genetic similarities to other species, the fossil records, observable macro-evolution in Biology, ring-species, etc. If all of what we have observed and discovered about the world we inhabit leads to one answer, and your holy book tells you another? Why would it be acceptable to dismiss Science, in favour of 'faith'?

3) Why is believing something for which you have no good evidence for, a good thing? Isn't that just gullibility? Why is it a good idea to use logic, reason, evidence AMAP in our lives, but when it comes to "The Big Question", we're supposed to suspend all critical thinking to believe in a god?

4) Do you believe in a literal Hell? If so, isn't the idea of an infinite punishment for a finite crime by definition, immoral? Also, if God does something, anything. Is it moral, no matter what it is? There are passages in the Bible where he commits mass genocide (of infants too). How do you reconcile this, or what justification is there for it?

5) Do you believe in the power of prayer? Can it have any effect? We've done multiple studies (one released not too long ago) that showed the ineffectiveness of prayer, and how it was no better than chance.
Not to mention... if your god wants something to happen, it happens, right? Visa versa? So why pray? Arn't you just telling him how to do his job, how he's made a mistake and how you want something that he didn't want.

6) Do you believe that your god is perfectly just? That everything happening under his gaze is absolutely fair and righteous? Do you also believe that he is merciful? If you believe this, it cannot be the case. Mercy opposes that which is just. A perfectly just and merciful being by definition cannot exist. How do you get around this?

7) Why can't God just show himself to us? It was good enough for "Doubting Thomas" in the Bible, and your god showed himself to Thomas. Why can't he do the same for us?

8) Do you have conversations with god? Do you audibly hear him, or speak to him? If so, how? And how could we tell the difference between someone that HAS seen him, and someone that is having delusions and hallucinating of holy images?

9) If you're a Christian, don't you believe in God due to sheer coincidence? By that, I mean... if you were born in the Middle East? You'd most likely be a Muslim. Telling us how we should all strive to live our lives by the Q'uran, and how Allah is the one true god. If it was in India, you'd be a Hindu. You're not a Christian because of any truth-value, it's just geography and tradition. Because most parents pass their religious beliefs down to their children. Agree/Disagree?

10) The big one. Aside from the talking snakes, living in whales, Arcs that can support thousands of animals for 40 days, etc.

Your god (according to the Biblical account) sacrificed himself, to himself, to create a loophole for a rule that he made in the first place. He had himself tortured, just to pass on a message to us? Plus, we're all created sick (with sin), and demanded on the pain of eternal torture to be well again. Your religious symbol is also an ancient torture device.

Can you guys rationalise these for me?

So long as you address at LEAST 1 of the points, I don't mind. But please don't come into the thread and post snidey jabs, or preach Bible verses at me. I'd like a discussion and engage with you. Any posts that have some substantive conversation are more than welcome. Thanks for reading! Oh, and if you have any questions as to what I believe, ask away!

 

So are old christians not welcome here or do you accept all ages

 

As a Pastafarian, I say believe what you shall and don't force it on others. If you believe in God, splendid! If you don't, then that's also fine!

All hail the giant spaghetti monster

 

I would prefer you spamming the forums with multiple threads about this instead of jamming 9 topics into one thread.

 

Heh Editson is back.

 

Okay, so this thread has grown a lot since I first started working on my response! I'll reply to the OP first, and then maybe tackle some other things that were brought up.

LOL, I remember pestering my mom with the first part of your question. "If you believe some parts of the Bible and not others, then why believe any of it at all?" I don't get how people can just dismiss certain things in the Bible as bad and not from God, and just accept others as... well... gospel. It's too convenient. But I do disagree with some things described in the Bible, and I have trouble understanding how some of it could be considered good (I'll get into that more in another question). How do I reconcile this, and why does that lead to following some parts of the Bible and not others? My short answer: Context matters.

My longer answer: Even the most arbitrary-seeming Old Testament law had a reason behind it - health (especially the food restrictions), hygiene (your body is a temple after all), setting the people of Israel apart from the cultures that surrounded them, relationships with others, and relationships with God. While it was forbidden to trim your beard or wear clothing of mixed fabrics, it also was forbidden to reap the edges of your field (so the poor could gather food) or to unfairly delay payment of an employee's wages. There are different types of laws (some ceremonial, some civil, etc.) written in Scripture, and many of them were very specific to Israel during a certain period of time. It's not that it's universally bad to cut your facial hair or to wear a wool and linen blend, it's that this certain group of people wasn't supposed to do those things. I believe that they don't apply to us today who live in radically different cultures, because they wouldn't have the same meaning. Then, of course, there are more universal laws of morality that most Christians recognize as valid - like the Ten Commandments.

The New Testament doesn't just erase all of that. To me, there are two key things Jesus says about this according to the Bible. The first is that Jesus himself came to fulfill "the law," not abolish it. The second is that all the laws are based on two commandments: "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbor as yourself." Everything else flows out from these. That's why Jesus didn't have a problem healing people on the Sabbath, for example, or "one-upping" the Ten Commandments by teaching that lust is adultery and hatred is murder. It seemed like he disregarded some Jewish laws and made others a lot stricter. But if the law as a whole is really about love - for God, for others, and for yourself, in that order - then those examples make total sense to me.

I've never liked the idea that science and religion are enemies, or that they have to oppose each other. I value both. There was an introduction to my biology textbook that said it perfectly to me: Science seeks to answer "How?" while religion seeks to answer "Why?" (Both can reveal truth, and both can also lead to false conclusions.) Sometimes they can challenge each other, and it's hard to reconcile them. But if they directly contradict, I think that one (or both) is usually overstepping its bounds. It's a myth that you can't accept evolution - even Darwin's Theory of Evolution - and also accept the Bible. There are also ways of reconciling the two that still give weight to what we have learned through science, but stop short of fully accepting certain scientific explanations.

Much of the Old Testament is written in a very poetic style (it's great literature), using words and phrases that can have many layers of meaning. The Hebrew word "yom," meaning "day," was used to mean a literal 24-hour day... but it was also used to mean a less defined time period, like "age." It's kinda like how our modern English word "season" can refer to a literal cycle of environmental change... or it can mean a "phase," a period of time. The creation stories in the Bible say that God created the world in six days (seven, if you count the day of rest), but what does that mean? Could it mean multiple things at once? I wouldn't go so far as to say Bible stories in general are metaphors that we shouldn't take literally. But when the language of certain parts point to a more layered and metaphorical meaning... why should we read a book of poetry as if it's a history or science textbook?

For those who question ALL evolution, I want to make it clear that there is nearly universal agreement and solid evidence for microevolution. That's when differences and changes develop within a species through evolution. The controversy is about applying that idea across species, which is called macroevolution, especially when people like Charles Darwin use it to explain the origins of humanity and life as we know it. There is still evidence, but not as much - this part of evolution is what people are talking about when they say there are "gaps in the fossil record," and things like that.

If you'll allow me to quote Scripture (not as an argument or proof, just to help explain what I mean)... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1 (KJV, but it's pretty much the same in most English translations.)

Later, John writes "the Word became flesh," referring to Jesus Christ. The Greek word that's used for "the Word" is "Logos." It can also mean reason or discourse, and it's where we get our word "logic." That's not a coincidence - it would have meant something specific to the theologians and philosophers of the time. Critical thinking cannot include faith, in the same way that the scientific method cannot include religion... but that doesn't mean that they can't co-exist. Blind, ignorant faith avoids critical thinking. Open, honest faith goes beyond its limits. There are also elements of trust and humility to it. When someone has faith, they are acknowledging that they don't know everything, and they may never know everything (at least, in this life), and that's okay. If it is a religious faith, they are believing in someone or something bigger than themselves. I'm sure you've met someone, at some point, who had a faith so strong and solid that they didn't have to talk about it much (or at all) for it to be seen clearly. The people like that who I have met are usually quite humble, yet stable and secure in themselves... they just exude this peace... like a version of the peace you might feel when you can fully trust someone you love and who you know loves you.

I believe that hell exists, but I'm not sure how to answer the question of whether it is "literal." In the Bible, what we traditionally think of as "hell" is described both as a place and a state of being, which makes sense when you consider that there are actually four different words being used. (Deinen already talked about those.) It seems clear from Scripture that there is an eternal destination for some souls that is NOT heaven or "paradise," separated from God, and it also seems clear that there is some kind of eternal punishment/consequence in store for some souls. Heaven is described as perfect communion with God, where people enter based on their relationship with God and are rewarded according to the good they have done in life. So I think of hell as a mirror image of that. I'll address the "infinite punishment for a finite crime" thing in your last question.

As far as the question about whether anything God does is moral... I believe the answer is yes, but you've pinpointed the problem with that. There are things in the Bible that disturb me - violence that seems unjust and yet is supposedly sanctioned by God, certain things that are said that seem to be immoral and wrong. I'm still struggling to understand it. Some of these things can be explained by context, as I've mentioned earlier. For example, some things said about women in the Bible are sexist by my standards, but they were actually quite egalitarian for the time they were written. Other puzzling advice is given to specific people and churches at specific times - remember that many of the New Testament books are letters. I try to consider the message that God was giving in the context that it was being given, and THEN consider what that would mean for us today. But other things are much, much harder to think about. I mean, God sees and knows a lot more than we do, so there are certain things we might disagree with, but He still has a good and moral reason for them. But genocide and the killing of children? I have a hard time accepting that the God I know would sanction those... and I don't really have a good answer for why He seems to.

I do believe in the power of prayer, but there are many different types and purposes of prayer, and you're talking about a narrow range of it. Prayer is about communicating with God - including listening, not just talking. Common elements of Christian prayer include praise, thanksgiving, confession, request, and meditation/contemplation/reflection (whatever you prefer to call it). And while I do believe God has a master plan of sorts... I don't believe he has our lives planned out to the last detail, to the point where we can't make our own choices or that our lives are left up to "fate."

But the Bible and Christian tradition do tell us, many times, "ask and you shall receive." I can name things in my life and others that I would say were answers to prayers. So I don't know what to make of those prayer studies (which are fascinating, by the way - I've looked them up before). If we're going to say that praying for someone causes something to happen that wouldn't otherwise happen, you'd think we would be able to measure that somehow. I think the best answer I can give is that prayer isn't a consistent variable. It might be like studying the effectiveness of cold medicine by giving people all different types and doses of it, and trying to draw a useable result from that. God's answers aren't necessarily consistent, either, because He sees and knows things that we don't.

I don't think you're gonna like my answer to this one. I love paradoxes like this, even when - sometimes especially when - I can't find a way to reconcile them. I think they are beautiful and can have profound meaning. We're also dealing with a divine being who I believe we will never fully understand, at least not on our power. Yes, I believe God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, and the apparent conflict between those two things is resolved in Him. I'll come back to this in your last question, because you've actually set it up quite nicely.

I don't know. My best guess is that we still may not recognize him. You mention the story of Thomas. According another story, when God wanted to convince Egypt to set the Israelites set free from slavery, Moses turned a river to blood and announced that God was bringing several other widespread plagues just before they happened. Pharoah's response to most of them was basically, "Cool parlor tricks. Your 'almighty god' is lame." And in the New Testament, when Jesus was healing people on his travels, there were always critics (ironically, the religious people) saying something like, "That's nice, but you're breaking the Sabbath and God doesn't like that." Signs and miracles won't convince the willfully ignorant... but I don't know why God doesn't reveal himself more directly to honest doubters.

I do have conversations with God. I don't hear him audibly, but a few people I've trusted and known to be in sound mind say they have (they describe it as something rare, strong, and fleeting). When I "hear" God's voice, it's usually a combination of feeling/sensing His presence and becoming aware of something internally. I'll speak to Him (in my head or out loud), and sometimes a "conversation" will continue and other times I'll feel like I'm talking to myself. Most Christians I've talked to about this describe something similar, and it usually happens (but doesn't have to) during prayer or while reading the Bible.

As for knowing whether people have REALLY heard or seen God... we can't know for sure. But that doesn't mean there is no way to tell. I believe Christians have some ability to discern this by comparing the "revelation" to what we already know of Him. If someone says that God told them something - that they should murder someone, for example - that seems to go against what we know of God from the Bible, Christian teachings, reason, and past experience, then it most likely did not come from God. If all of those things seem to support the experience, then it's possible that it was Him. Another thing I've noticed is that when people I trust say that God told them to DO something (whether audibly or not), they also often talk about wanting to argue with Him. ("But that doesn't make sense! Why should I stop and talk to this person I don't even know?" ... "I can't move to Kenya to work as a medical missionary! I'm not cut out for that.") That happens a lot in the Bible (see Moses and his over 9000 excuses). God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit not just to confirm our beliefs - but also to challenges them.

I had an experience like this a couple weeks ago, actually... I might share it eventually, because it's related to MeepCraft (or more accurately, the people I've met through MeepCraft), but I'm still kinda figuring it out.

Hmm. Agree with your premise, disagree with your conclusion? It might apply more to the younger people here, and it also probably would have more relevance to the past when there was less cultural exchange and communication. If I didn't think that Christianity held any truth-value then I wouldn't believe it. I believe that many - if not most - of the religions I've studied have some truth in them, but that Jesus is THE truth. (It's hard for me to directly explain why. I find it easier to talk about different aspects of my beliefs, which come together to explain the whole. Which is kinda what we've been doing here. ) Does that mean that if I grew up in a Muslim family in a Muslim-dominated culture, that I still would have become a Christian? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. (Not gonna get into predestination and all that jazz right now.)

Okay, this is where a lot of these things are gonna come together. I'm going to talk like it's fact just to keep things simple, but feel free to mentally insert "I believe" before everything here, lol. Let's start with the premise that God, for whatever reason (we can get into that later if you want), wanted to create beings that could enjoy his creation and live in communion with him. He would love these beings, but if they were incapable of CHOOSING to love Him and each other... well, I think C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity (great book) describes the problem better than I could:

"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata—of creatures that worked like machines—would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.

. . . If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will—that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings—then we may take it it is worth paying."

So here we come back to your earlier question. God is perfectly just, so he cannot tolerate evil or wrongdoing - it must carry a punishment (justice), and it eternally separates us from communion with Him (because God is also perfectly good). But He is also perfectly merciful. So how could he extend forgiveness and mercy to us while still preserving justice and our free will? By solving this paradox with another one. Part of Himself joined humanity, but still remained God, in the person of Jesus Christ. "The Word" - His reason, discourse, communication with us - "became flesh." Jesus lived the life we were meant to live but couldn't, loved us so much that He died the death that we collectively deserved and He didn't, and was resurrected.

God had been guiding humans toward Him (and our own goodness) through the Scriptures and the prophets, and He had been showing us the bits of evil and wrongdoing in ourselves so that we could turn away (repent) from it. People were sacrificing animals to cover their "finite crimes," and as a reminder that sin has a cost, but that didn't solve the problem of infinite separation from God. Jewish people tried to follow the law, and to be good people who were worthy of being with God, but it wasn't enough. We weren't really getting the justice we deserved or the mercy we needed. Of course, God would have known this, but it would take some time for the world to be ready for the solution. When that time came, Jesus did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves. He lived a human life that was not only sinless but actively good, and in his innocence he died a death that paid the price for our guilt. He was resurrected to show God's victory over evil and death, and then the Son rejoined the Father in heaven. Through a relationship with God and the power of His Holy Spirit, we get the chance to participate, in a sense, in all three of these things. If we know and follow Jesus, the Holy Spirit leads us to righteousness that we couldn't achieve on our own (but that Jesus already did). When we go astray, we are prompted to confess and turn away from our sin, which restores our hearts and turns us back toward God, who has already both paid the cost of our sins and forgiven them. And after we die here on earth, we too can reunite with God in heaven. So from an eternal perspective, God's divine justice is satisfied and his mercy is extended to anyone who accepts it.

Sorry if that part got a little preachy... that's why I gave the "I believe" disclaimer.

As far as the symbol of the cross being a torture device - yes, we know! One of the major themes of Christianity is redemption - of humanity, of creation, of individual people, and even of things like symbols. The cross became a reminder of God's love, the price Jesus paid for us, and God's ultimate victory over sin and death. We still recognize its nature as a device for torture and execution... the Bible uses it as a metaphor for "dying to sin" (repentance), and refers to "taking up your cross" as a metaphor for the struggles we may have to endure to become more like Him (in other words, to be better people). But it also reminds us that He already bore his own cross and died for us. God has already won. We are loved, and redeemed, and free.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 22, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 22, 2015 ---

Also wanted to add...

Christians believe we have an important part to play, that's about more than avoiding things that are bad, or even "being good." Because God doesn't often show Himself to us directly, we become Jesus to the world - we live out God's love. Someone else posted that God will speak to us through others and will show Himself through their compassion and goodness... and that's very true. That's the role we're meant to play if we are truly following Jesus.

 

It'd be a better use for this space.

Also, why do you guys feel the need to start a thread against Christians? If you're gonna make a debate, please don't make it one sided.

 

I mean I'm with you on this I'm just trying to post sarcastic stuff for likes because this thread is gonna get a lot of traffic and I'm not proud

 

A. Someone's religious beliefs does not mark them as "stupid", because when you boil it down it's just an opinion, much like yours could be considered stupid by them
B. there was no reason to bring this back up, especially since you had nothing intelligent to add to the conversation

 

Hoooo. Boy.

I do disagree with parts of it, but I do believe god exists, hell exists, heaven exists, purgatory exists. It's something that you basically have to trust, like how you'd trust a dad to protect you as a kid even if he never says that he would.

Again, it's something that you simply put trust in, you choose whether to believe in it or not. I'm not going to try to make you believe it, it is your free will like how it was intended.

Yes I do, no it is not. As long as you die with mortal sins on your soul, you will go to hell, you will be punished. That's the way of life.

Yes. Yes. It's been shown before using miracles that praying can and does have an effect on you, physically and spiritually.

Yes, no, yes. Life isn't fair, that's basically it. There will be bad times, there will be bad people. Sometimes God will choose to save you, other times, it's your choice to go the good or bad.

Basically the same as number 5 - miracles. You don't always have to see them or know that they are there.

Yes. No. Prayer is talking to God, but while He listens we usually don't see or hear Him.

I was born into a Christian family in the US. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. To be honest, it's near impossible to find out. You choose what to believe when you're surrounded by that specific culture.

Jesus was born to open the gates of Heaven for us when he died. As God's son, he could do this.
(Sorry if some of this makes no sense, I am sleepy. But thank you.)

 

Religion was made for man, man wasn't made for religion. If people understood this fact there wouldn't be so many religious conflicts in the world.

 

Tl; Dr
1) Create huge wall of text
2) Use fancy words
3) Reject all people that can pertinently reply to OP ( to all of you YOUNG christians)
4) Debate won, gg.
Liek if you cri everytiem

In all seriousness, religion is an idea. Some people may agree with it. Others may not.
Any wise man would understand that going beyond that is simply impossible and completely useless. Both sides can easily spew out thousands of arguments, all of them legitimate.

 

I'm surprised at how little the amount of jimmies rustled are there on this thread, I thought this was going to turn into a hate thread real fast, glad to see it's still alive.

 

I haven't read this much since reading the menu at the Cheesecake Factory hot damn kari

 

There is no reference to "Hell" in the bible.

 

Woah. Hang on. If you want to create a joke-thread, do it in your own time, on your own terms. It's not fair to hi-jack a thread for your own means. Not cool.

"I find it kind of insulting". Cool. You're offended. So what? 'Hurt feelings' hold no weight in an argument.

If religion was JUST something people kept entirely to themselves, I could see where you're coming from. But it isn't. It tries to govern our politics, our education systems, our laws, and our social norms.

Plus, this ISN'T a flame war. I explicitly expressed a desire to exchange ideas, and that I want to be proven wrong wherever possible so I can better myself. I want my own ideas scrutinised and tested, as would I like this to happen to everyone else, ideally. So we can have the best moral, best values, best ideas. And I don't think it should stop merely because challenging what people believe offends you.

Je suis Charlie.

EDIT: Damn, I wish I'd have quoted more of your post. Going back and deleting 90% of what you said is extremely dishonest at best. Please don't post in this thread again unless it's on topic, thank you.

 

I identify as being Jewish, however, I have my own philosophy on things I'd like to share.

I believe that it dosent matter what religion, or a lack of religion, someone has. I believe we are judged for what we do in life, how hard we work in life, and for what purpose we work for. Religion is just something that binds people and family together, and to be honest, I am completely ok with that.